was it jehovahs witnesses who acknowledge the church father as leading teachers?
this is a very interesting statement by justin.
do you accept origen as an authority when he said jesus is our god?
Sangdigger,
I know their refutation too. I remember their "Reasoning from the Scriptures" where they argued that God did not know Adam and Eve would sin and mankind be brought in misery before they actually did it!
Simple quote against that:
1 Peter 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
God Bless
was it jehovahs witnesses who acknowledge the church father as leading teachers?
this is a very interesting statement by justin.
do you accept origen as an authority when he said jesus is our god?
youdontknowhim,
I dont know or care that much about the other guys you mention, but I do care about your wrong presentation of Justin Martyrs beliefs. Trinitarians and JWs alike misinterpret Justin.
Notice what you quote yourself:
"He is the Son of the true God Himself, and holding Him in the second place, and the prophetic Spirit in the third, we will prove"
SO Jesus is not the true God. Do trinitarians agree? Yes or no?
Read hard the following statements from Justin:
"150 AD Justin Martyr "God begot before all creatures a Beginning, who was a certain rational power from himself and whom the Holy Spirit calls . . . sometimes the Son, . . . sometimes Lord and Word ... We see things happen similarly among ourselves, for whenever we utter some word, we beget a word, yet not by any cutting off, which would diminish the word in us when we utter it. We see a similar occurrence when one fire enkindles another. It is not diminished through the enkindling of the other, but remains as it was" (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 61)."
" "Then Trypho said, "We do not perceive this from the passage quoted by you, but [only this], that it was an angel who appeared in the flame of fire, but God who conversed with Moses; so that there were really two persons in company with each other, an angel and God, that appeared in that vision."
I again replied, "Even if this were so, my friends, that an angel and God were together in the vision seen by Moses, yet, as has already been proved to you by the passages previously quoted, it will not be the Creator of all things that is the God that said to Moses that He was the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, but it will be He who has been proved to you to have appeared to Abraham, ministering to the will of the Maker of all things, and likewise carrying into execution His counsel in the judgment of Sodom; so that, even though it be as you say, that there were two-an angel and God-he who has but the smallest intelligence will not venture to assert that the Maker and Father of all things, having left all supercelestial matters, was visible on a little portion of the earth." (Dialogue 2 with Trypho the Jew Chapter LX)."
Justin never calls Jesus the true God. Justin does not consider Jesus the Creator of all things. But he does not consider him a created being either. Jesus was made like a word you or I speak, or if we were a fire, that we by our flame started another fire. They are of the same substance, yet they are seperate. Jesus is another God, a lower subordinate God, yet Justin see no problem in calling him God just as the Bible calls men and angels God or gods a few places. God was simply a very common word back then. Great kings/emperors were called God, so how more fitting Jesus. It is no problem for Justin to worship Jesus, because worship held a much wider definition both in the Bible and in Justins world.
Justin believed Jesus to have had a real physical beginning - "he formed a beginning", not the indefinite beginning of modern philosophy.Yet he was uncreate, because his substance was the Father's, he proceeded from the Father as when as if I was a fire, I started a little fire, and became a being on his own. Thus he had a tangible beginning. Here we have the core of Justin's unreasonable philosophy.
As for the Holy Spirit, it is a grey arrear with Justin. Sometimes he says the Spirit is 3 rd , while he mentions the angels before the Holy Spirit in another wellknown Justin quote. I dont think it is possible out of the dialogs to determine whether he believed this Spirit to be an actual person. I know some trinitarians who will fight hard to claim that Justin believed Jesus to be very God, but that he was a binitarian, not the a trinitarian, thus he did not consider the Holy Spirit to be a person according to them.
Justins reasoning contains a number of problems and logic errors. I can very much understand that people dont understand what Justin believed Jesus to be. Thus his beliefs did not last, therefore the new light of the church had to change them. How knowledgable he was of the Bible is hard to tell, of cause he knew a lot of verses etc, but we know that he did not have access to all the NT books we have today.
Justins theories seem to be somewhere inbetween trinitarian and JW but in fact they are quit different than both of them.
But.. people that seem so interested in what the churchfathers with all their Greek philosophy etc had to say, forget this quote from Paul:
Acts 20:25 And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more. 26 Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men. 27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God. 28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with the blood of his own. 29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. 31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.
So men of power would bring in destruction.
God Bless
Edited by - Rev BII on 9 August 2002 9:59:0
.
i was wondering if anybody thinks the wtbts is possibly the "false prophet" of revelation???.
please comment.
Agreed. You will have to start with the Roman Catholic church and then forth. A big group.
:)
this is why i like to help those come to an accurate knowledge in the first place.
those that agree that there has been so many god's that have been worshiped can post here.
satan is behind it all of course.
Jan H,
Well man does make his gods in the image of himself. As a Christadelphian, it's no surprise I don't agree with you that Jehovah is created but I agree most of the beliefs of him are. The true God is certainly evil in some ways according to the definitions of humanism (if not why don't he stop all this suffering), but the problem is that if you believe in him, you also believe that he is not bound by the rules of humanism.
Genesis 18:27 Behold I pray thee I have ventured to speak unto My Lord, though I am dust and ashes.
Romans 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Isaiah 45: 6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
God Bless
Edited by - Rev BII on 22 July 2002 5:19:0
the topic of this thread is mostly directed towards jehovah's witnesses who still have some ability to think.
this topic is important to those jws who may have some doubts about their religion, no matter how small they might be.. i'm going to make perhaps, a rather startling assertion and instead of presenting all of my arguments for it, will invite others to contribute their own arguments.
if a person was to ask a number of jehovah's witnesses what was the single most important part of their religion, a variety of answers would be given, and without question, all of them would be wrong.. to put it another way, if one had the power to take away just one thing from the watchtower religion that would render it impotent and foundering like a beached whale, what would that one thing be?.
Of cause the JW litterature is essential to them because they would never reach their conclusions without them. Russell was an untaught man that attempted to make the Bible say want he wanted it to do and taking verses out of their context. The stumbling question to JWs and most other groups is this: do you preach the Gospel of the apostles? If not, you preach another gospel and the Bible warns against such.
according to revelation 20:10 the devil will be tormented day and night forever and ever along with the "false prophet".
i asked several jw's about this and the reply was "we don't take it like that" or "it doesn't literally mean that".
wether or not there is a hell it sure seams they are missing or ignoring something.
Hi Bleep
"Then Jesus Christ will rule as King over this earth for 1,000 years. (Revelation 20:6) He will gradually take sin away from our minds and bodies. We will become perfect humans just as Adam and Eve were before they sinned. Then there will be no more sickness, old age, and death. Sick people will be cured, and old persons will become young again.-Job 33:25; Isaiah 33:24; Revelation 21:3, 4."
- The promises are to those that have citizenship in Israel, without being buried with Christ, you are without hope (Rom. 6:8, Eph. 2:12).
"During Jesus' Thousand Year Reign, faithful humans will work to turn the whole earth into a paradise. (Luke 23:43) Also, millions of dead ones will be resurrected to human life on the earth. (Acts 24:15) If they do what God requires of them, they will continue to live on earth forever. If not, they will be destroyed forever.-John 5:28, 29; Revelation 20:11-15."
- Those verses are not saying that. Luke 23:43 speaks of the restored earth, which will be finally restored after the 1.000 years. The other verses say that people will come out of the graves to either life/immortality or condemnation. When Christ returns, the mortal population will be those not called to judgement. These will have children in the Kingdom, while those counted worthy to the Kingdom and the reign when Christ returns will not (Luke 20:35-36). That way the earth will be filled.
"God's original purpose for the earth will thus succeed. Would you like to share in these future blessings? If so, you need to keep learning about Jehovah and obeying his requirements. Attending meetings at the local Kingdom Hall of Jehovah's Witnesses will help you to do so.-Isaiah 11:9; Hebrews 10:24, 25."
- I have yet to see any passages in the Bible telling of the above Gospel. It's not there in the apostles preaching. Look here:
Acts 3:17 And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers. 18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled. 19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. 22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. 23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
That message is clear. Repent now and receive the Kingdom or be destroyed. The thing is, one you get down in the grave with Jesus, you don't come up to life.
Consider..
God Bless
only god has the power to create things.
but he can have help with the design.that is why they can only be mutants or huge giants when having relations with humans.
the demons have the power to go into the body.
How do you manage to to interpret 'I began to behold Satan already fallen like lightning from heaven.' (Luke 10:18) as speak as a literal fall? Obvious it's figurative for the success the apostles have through the name of Jesus in defeating satan's world.
If "satan" was thrown down in the times of Adam, what was he doing up in Heaven as popular teachings says in Job 1:6?
Are you linking this to Rev. 12? Well the visions in Revelations deal with issues coming to pass in the future from when it's written (Rev. 4:1)
Those that understand satan as a fallen angel comes into a number of problems, not least with the OT.
God Bless
Edited by - Rev BII on 20 July 2002 5:32:54
according to revelation 20:10 the devil will be tormented day and night forever and ever along with the "false prophet".
i asked several jw's about this and the reply was "we don't take it like that" or "it doesn't literally mean that".
wether or not there is a hell it sure seams they are missing or ignoring something.
Bleep,
"Jesus gave us life again by cleansing us of all sins after we die. The wages of sin is death. We first must die or live long enough to pass threw to the new system. At that time we are made perfect since Christ will rule on earth as he rules now in heaven since 1914. We have one chance (one thousand years) to prove we are good. If someone is on the side of Satan when he is let loose then he will have the second death. If you have any questions Rev Bill, I will try to the best of my ability to help clear some things up or get you started."
- Well Bleep you could start by telling me where I find the passage in the Bible that tells this story of a thousand years long chance. Not that it doesnt have its appealing sides, but we have to stick to the Bible. On the contrary Matt. 25:31-46, John 5:28-29, 2 Kor. 5:10 and Heb. 9:27 all testifies to the clear message that all accountable are judged for their deeds when Christ returns and after this given either immortality or 2nd death. Im also curious where the Bible tells us Jesus reigns up in heaven since 1914.
:)
Edited by - Rev BII on 19 July 2002 20:55:51
only god has the power to create things.
but he can have help with the design.that is why they can only be mutants or huge giants when having relations with humans.
the demons have the power to go into the body.
Saint satan,
Excellent point again. Yes, this was just an old tale those men told so Quotes is wrong there.
Nah, these Nephilim were utterly human. Job refers to the lads here:
Job 22: 15 Hast thou marked the old way which wicked men have trodden? 16 Which were cut down out of time, whose foundation was overflown with a flood:
It started when the sons of God mingled with the ungodly daughters of men.
:)
Edited by - Rev BII on 19 July 2002 18:18:41
according to revelation 20:10 the devil will be tormented day and night forever and ever along with the "false prophet".
i asked several jw's about this and the reply was "we don't take it like that" or "it doesn't literally mean that".
wether or not there is a hell it sure seams they are missing or ignoring something.
I don't think the Bible teaches of any fiery hell, nor did the pre - hellenistic Jews and early Christians, although I believe in punishment and totally reject the JW ideas about resurrection of people to a new chance. Consider:
Rev. 14: 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
How eternal? As eternal as the Lamb and the angels will be watching. Note this doesn't take place down in the underworld either.
Rev. 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Here we even get the interpretation of the lake of fire - 2nd death. The wages of sin is death (Rom. 6:23). Can you put death and hades into a physical place? No, symbols go down into symbols, not literal places.
Along with that, immortality is a gift (2 Tim. 1:10). The Bible refers to the death as a sleep of nonexistence in the dust in lots of verses, forinstance:
Genesis 3: 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
Isaiah 26:14 The dead will not live, the departed spirits will not rise; Therefore You have punished and destroyed them, And You have wiped out all remembrance of them.
Isaiah 26:19 Your dead will live; Their corpses will rise. You who lie in the dust, awake and shout for joy, For your dew is as the dew of the dawn, And the earth will give birth to the departed spirits.
1 Corinthians 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
Consider also the OT use of "hell fire":
Isaiah 34:8 For it is the day of the LORDS vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion. 9 And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch. 10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever. 11 But the cormorant and the bittern shall possess it; the owl also and the raven shall dwell in it: and he shall stretch out upon it the line of confusion, and the stones of emptiness. 12 They shall call the nobles thereof to the kingdom, but none shall be there, and all her princes shall be nothing. 13 And thorns shall come up in her palaces, nettles and brambles in the fortresses thereof: and it shall be an habitation of dragons, and a court for owls. 14 The wild beasts of the desert shall also meet with the wild beasts of the island, and the satyr shall cry to his fellow; the screech owl also shall rest there, and find for herself a place of rest.
Read that passage carefully. By modern day definitions it contains a major contradiction. A land is burning forever, smoke goes up forever etc, yet owls and ravens, thorns shall grow and dragons and wild beasts shall live in it etc.
The answer to all this is that the Biblical hellfire is eternal destruction, doubtlessly dragging on non Biblical imagination to make people relate better to it perhaps. I believe the Bible require careful dedicated study and once you get into it, you will see that it sometimes uses quit a few pagan imaginations to make its points come across, yet you are not left with doubt about what the truth is.
God Bless
Edited by - Rev BII on 19 July 2002 18:5:53
Edited by - Rev BII on 19 July 2002 18:7:17
